/ RECOMMENDED REPLICA BAG SELLERS LIST (Updated 2025)

RECOMMENDED REPLICA BAG SELLERS LIST (Updated 2025)

My replica bag collection showcasing various fake designer bags

Part of My Replica Bags Collection Crazy how these are worth over $40,000 USD at their retail price when I got them for a 10th of that amount!

Where do I buy replica bags?

Hi guys! 

I get A LOT of emails about what sites I recommend for buying replica bags and here are some dealers/sites I shop with right now. 

I try to update the list from time to time but keep in mind I buy replicas about 4-5 times a year in big hauls so I don’t update the list every second.

Please keep in mind:

  • These are just places I have experience with hence why I recommend them.
  • BUT at the end of the day, you should shop with whoever you feel comfortable with.

 

The key point of this blog is to point out differences you should be looking for between real and fake bags which you can use whilst shopping generally. For a detailed guide on replica quality, please refer to the article on How to Choose Best Replica Bags

Table of Contents

Quick Look at Seller Info

Digging Deeper into My Experiences with These Sellers

Questions You Care About

 

Presently, I don’t shop on Ioffer, Aliexpress, or social media because I have been burned through them (as have a lot of other blog readers) and they are really hit or miss.

I prefer to build long-term relationships with reliable sellers so I can make sure I always get high-quality products every time.

If you have any sites to recommend please email me or comment below!

🔸Check the Replica Scam List to Avoid Known Scammers and Dishonest Sellers

NO SPAM from replica sellers please.

This is for replica shoppers only and we want to keep it ad-free!

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They specialize in top-quality Hermes bags, and the quality is phenomenal although they are pricey!

  • Olga counterluxury.cn  SITE CLOSED

This site doesn’t have many brands but their Celine is awesome!

Thanks to the blog commenter who let us know their site has changed. I’ve shopped here a lot in the past. They sell pretty much everything.

  • James HermesSeller has the following sites:  Louis Vuitton louisvuittonreplicas.cn; Other Brands bellabags.ru  SITE CLOSED

Specializes in quite a few brands look above for details!

Email: louismirrorru@gmail.com

They specialize in Louis Vuitton bags as their name suggests, and have some Gucci on their site as well! Their Louis Vuitton is on point!

  • repaporter.com  SITE CLOSED

They have a little bit of everything.

  • Kaye kayezhangbag.x.yupoo.com  SITE CLOSED

They specialize in Hermes.

Email: perfectcclub@gmail.com

They specialize in CC bags.

  • Kitty

Email: kittyrepstar@gmail.com

Their Balenciaga City is great!

  • Bella

Email: bellasrepbags@gmail.com

They specialize in wallets of various brands.

Looking for Replica Knockoff bags? Click here to see my list of recommended resale websites!

👉 You might also like:

 

Now, let’s delve into the details of these sellers and my stories with them. 👇

 

Homepage of a fake designer bags website featuring counterfeit Hermes items.

They cover almost all of the bags from the Hermès collection and a portion of their wallets, like Birkin, Kelly, Constance, Evelyne, Garden Party, Bolide, Lindy, Jypsiere, and Halzan – it’s a treasure trove for Hermes enthusiasts!

They also offer other Hermès-related items, like shoes, home goods, and scarves.

👉 Read my full review of the Fake Hermes Blanket Comparison

This seller was recommended to me by a reader named Jess. I clearly remember that for months, I had been searching for the best supplier for my Super Hermès.

I have authentic Hermès, so I wanted the highest quality.

Back then (in 2016), several readers recommended PH, so I reached out to Hannah. She responded quickly and shared videos of their hand-stitching process and leatherwork. It was both amazing and fascinating.

Display of a counterfeit Birkin bag replicating the iconic Hermes design

I ordered my first faux Birkin bag from them back in 2016. Wow, it’s been so long (I feel old)!

They have access to pretty much all the colors, if it’s a new color I’m not sure, but it’s worth asking.

I sent Hannah a photo of a HSS bag with 3 colors, (I didn’t know the name of any of the colors) and she was able to tell me each color name so that I could order.

The sellers see these leathers and colors all day every day. It doesn’t hurt to ask!

She was very patient, asking about my preferences, like if I preferred the more textured Togo leather. She made recommendations based on my tastes, like a personal stylist—haha.

They offer Togo, Epsom, Swift, and other leathers, including exotic ones. Besides that, they also provide a variety of hardware options.

👉 Read Also:

You can place an order on their website or email them pictures and dimensions of what you’re interested in. They’ll check the quote for you.

If it’s not in stock, they’ll need a 50% deposit for custom orders, which take about 15-20 days.

They do really detailed work and take tons of photos of each bag, including the keys, lock, leather, logo, stamp codes, stitching, and edges.

They also send videos. If there’s anything you’re not happy with, they’ll make changes, so make sure to check the photos carefully.

Once everything is good and you’ve paid the rest, they’ll ship it the next day via DHL, FedEx, or USPS, and give you a tracking number.

In my experience, the shipping method can vary, but you can ask for a specific one.

I’ve gotten 2 Kellys, 4 Birkins, 1 Constance, 1 Evelyne, 1 Garden Party, and 3 wallets from them. Honestly, they’ve never let me down, and my bags always get lots of compliments.

Close-up of a Birkin copy bag in premium faux leather detailing Nata/Gold, bghw, epsom Hermes replication of a Lindy Etain bag featuring an exterior in Etain with a rose sakura interior and gold hardware, displaying intricate replica detailing

One of my orders.

Birkin 30, Nata/Gold, bghw, epsom.

I love it!
I’d love to get more Horseshoe stamped bags in the future.

This is a gift for my sis.

Lindy Etain outside with rose sakura inside, GHW.

We both absolutely love the adorable combination that Hannah recommended.
It’s just stunning!

Ever since I met Hannah, I no longer think it’s worth it to “play the Hermes game” to get a Birkin or a Kelly.  The high-tier version replicas are SO good.

I have taken my Kelly into the boutique to get a pair of leather shoes for my husband. I have worn these bags around my girlfriends who have spent >300,000 on boutique bags.  And had them gush nonstop at the quality of my “Diamond quality fake

My next replica Hermes will be a crocodile Birkin and I’m eyeing the Himalayan.

Long story short: I will never get a boutique bag nor a resale Replica Knockoff Hermes;  I will ONLY get high-tier replicas from here on out.

Signed, A girl trying to sell her Replica Knockoff Hermes Kelly for more high-tier Replica Hermes.

 

Online luxury replica store page featuring a variety of high-end designer knockoff bags

Warning: there are fake DD out there. The fake sites stop responding after you pay. I’ve received several complaints, a lady was scammed out of $1500!

They’re a massive factory, offering not only bags of various brands but also clothing, shoes, earrings, bracelets, and necklaces.

They have a wide range of products. If you can’t find what you’re looking for on their website, just shoot them an email.

I got some excellent fake Gucci items from DD, and they go really well with my outfits.

Honestly, one of the reasons why I bought fake is because I used them as replacement to my Replica Knockoff items for traveling. Just like the replica Gucci Savoy bag I picked out for my husband. 😂😂

I seldom use my Replica Knockoff for travel especially my Chanel or any Replica Knockoff bags that are bright color.

I was in Paris for a week. Traveled with fake LV, Chanel, and YSL bags. Even went into the LV boutique with my replica Pochette Metis from DD.

I’ve traveled with my replica bags several times and have never had an issue. My personal bag is always a replica St. Louis or Neverfull and inside is always another replica bag like my Multi Pochette Accessoires or Classic Flap.

Whenever I’m looking for a more niche brand, DD is always my first choice. Customer service rep Lily has great insights into their bag selections (not necessarily the priciest ones).

For instance, when my sister really wanted that red fake Miu Miu, Lily didn’t recommend it. She straightforwardly mentioned the color discrepancy issue with that bag and suggested I go for the black one instead.

She would select products for me and circle the most obscure flaws and send me pics.

If an item I wanted wasn’t repped well, she would tell me and suggest items when she figured out I had eclectic taste. She’s the best!

👉 You might also like: 21 Best Replica Bags Worth Buying (2024 Review)

 

Email: louismirrorru@gmail.com

Online store display featuring a wide range of knock off bags online

They specialize in Louis Vuitton bags as their name suggests, and have some sneakers on their site as well!

I bought a pair of Gucci sneakers from them, and I even compared them with my Replica Knockoff ones.

Their product album is easy to browse, but there’s no shopping cart button. You can only order via email.

They charge $30 for shipping, but usually, when I make bulk purchases, they waive the shipping fee.

I like working with Xinya. Very sweet, responsive, quick, good English.

She also gave me an insight into how they go about their business, it was fun chatting with her. It makes me feel like I’m not talking to a robot, but a friend hehehe

I remember one time when I wasn’t satisfied (it was a newly repped bag and the stitching didn’t look great).

After I saw the pre-shipment pictures, she offered a refund or said if I could wait 10 days, they could produce a new one to guarantee perfection, and they threw in a cardholder for the delay.

I find them still competitive. It is absolutely worth the peace of mind that my quality will be top-notch every. single. time.

She has sent multiple bags back for quality issues before even sharing them with me, and if I have a concern with a bag she is willing to send it back, but my concerns are usually resolved with a quick video she snaps.

She’s to the point and no nonsense, no fluff, so it feels like a personal victory when I can get a fun emoji out of her, but she’s fantastic at what she does.

 

Email: perfectcclub@gmail.com

PCC is a great source for Chanel!

Super responsive and had several successful purchases that arrived safe and sound, perfect boutique packaging (dust bag, booklet, flower, box, and shopping bag).

Very good selection and a good communicator. A good friend of mine was a replica newbie and they helped her with a serious Chanel mission (wedding party) that she was ecstatic about.

Hannah would even returned excess payments because the ones I liked were not available. Very honest. P.S. She’s a Chanel enthusiast. Whenever I have questions about bags, she patiently discusses them with me.

She’s very honest and professional. She’s also stopped me from buying something because it was not well made. I trust her opinion 110%!

She will tell me straight up if there are flaws in a replica that I didn’t notice (slightly off color or strap length differences) and will recommend better quality reps, she’s great!

She never gets annoyed with my many questions or requests for more photos, and I’ve always been happy with what I’ve bought from them.

👉 More posts you may like:

 

  • Kitty

Email: kittyrepstar@gmail.com

Kitty was difficult to get started with she’s very cautious (understandably so) and was slow to respond (I knew her modus operandi was to disappear after taking the monies, which I was prepared for, but I didn’t expect the initial struggle to get her to take my money!)

However, once we got through that first order, she’s been an absolute gem!

She’s so helpful in helping me pick out things I like if something isn’t available, and their quality is top-notch, I love working with them.

 

  • Bella

Email: bellasrepbags@gmail.com

Love working with Bella. She is my go-to for wallets and I’ve bought 7 of them from her!

I remember one time, she declined a wallet her colleague sent for me as there was a very small what looked like pin prick mark in the leather.

She sent the photo and circled the damage for me to see and told me that a new one has already been requested.

She did inform me about the delay, but I was kept updated the whole time, and their quality control was excellent.

👉Read Also: 

 

Which seller is better?

For me, this question is impossible to answer because it’s entirely subjective.

What may be crucial details to one person could not matter at all to someone else.

Different sellers/factories have their own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to major details (like leather, proportions, and all external features) and minor details (like the shape of a clasp, font on the serial number tag, etc.).

If the suppliers or sellers have different brands and styles, it’s not really comparable.

When I want LV, I usually go for Louis or DD.

  • LV  Louis / DD
  • Hermes  PH
  • Chanel  PCC
  • Other brands no specific seller

 

How do I order a replica bag?

1. If you want to order a specific bag, you can send a message directly to the seller. 

Or, if you’re like me and enjoy browsing extensively through the seller’s website and album catalogs, I often decide on the style I want through browsing.

2. Ask for the seller’s opinion. Keep in mind that the quality can vary between different batches of products. Some batches are great, while others might not be as good, so asking is really important.

3. Once you’ve made your final choice, confirm the order and pay using your preferred method.

Generally, sellers accept PayPal Friends and Family, Wise, Western Union, Bitcoin, MoneyGram, wire transfer, etc. I prefer using Wise because it’s fast and has low fees.

4. Be patient while waiting for the PSPs (pre-shipment photos) of each item you ordered. Most sellers don’t provide them automatically, so be sure to let the seller know you want them when you place your order.

5. If you’re happy with the PSPs, the seller will ship your order. If not, the seller will offer an exchange or refund.

6. Once you’re satisfied and the order is ready to ship, make sure to send the seller your complete shipping information (recipient, address, city, state, postal code, country, and phone number).

Also, let them know your preferred shipping service and the declared value for the package. (I usually don’t make special requests; the sellers are more experienced with shipping and declarations.)

7. Be patient while waiting for updates. The seller will provide a tracking number within a few days, and you can track it at 17track.

 

Trusted Seller Resources: FAQs

About Payment

1. Why some sellers don’t accept Paypal?

PayPal can be a risky payment method for replica sellers, which is why not all of them use it.

Sellers who do use PayPal have often had their accounts frozen, suspended, or completely shut down due to fraudulent disputes filed by dishonest buyers after they’ve received their orders.

That’s why, if a seller accepts PayPal, they’ll typically ask you to send the money using the “Friends Family” option rather than “Goods Services.” 

 

2. How do I transfer money via Wise/How to wire money?

Some people think using Wise is tricky, but it’s actually not that bad. They provide clear, step-by-step instructions for sending money.

There are several options for paying for your transfer. You can pay from your bank account, your Wise account, or use a Debit or Credit Card.

Keep in mind that different methods come with different fees for each option. Just pick whichever method you find most convenient or has the lowest fees.

If you prefer a wire transfer, you can also check this guide for reference.

 

3. Why does my Wise/Wire transfer keep getting denied?

They’ve got to play by the rules, which include federal and international anti-money laundering regulations.

If it’s your first time transferring money abroad, they might put your transfer on hold and ask you some questions about who you’re sending money to and why.

Sometimes, the rejection has absolutely nothing to do with you. It could be because the seller has hit their limit for receiving transfers, whether it’s for the day, month, or even the whole year.

So, if a seller says they can’t pick up the money even though your tracking status shows as “Received,” it means the bank or agent has the funds but won’t release them to the recipient due to account limits.

If that’s the case, you’ll need to reach out to Wise/bank to get your transfer sorted out. No need to stress too much; they can’t just lose your money.

It’s all tracked electronically. If there’s a hiccup, just talk to your seller and call the Wise/bank’s customer service number, and they’ll help you out.

 

4. What do I tell them when Wise/bank asks me about my transfer?

You can be honest and give general answers, be honest and provide all the specifics, or you can just keep it really vague.

It’s tough to say which approach is more likely to get your transfer approved. It can vary from person to person depending on the agent you’re dealing with.

They’re not grilling you to catch you buying replicas; they honestly don’t care about that.

Their main concern is making sure you’re not sending money to some shady terrorist group or falling for a Nigerian prince scam.

 

About Shipping Customs

1. I received the EMS/DHL/FedEx/USPS tracking info, but it’s not valid. 

Don’t jump to conclusions just yet if your tracking info doesn’t seem to be working. Sometimes, it takes a few days for the tracking to actually start showing updates.

What’s happened is that the shipping agent, not the seller, has created the label for your package. And they’re the ones responsible for sending it out.

Give it a day or two. If you’re using DHL, sometimes the waybill number can change.

To get the updated number, you’ll either need to reach out to the seller or try searching by the shipper’s reference number on the DHL website.

 

2. Is there anything I can do to prevent customs from seizing my package?

Honestly, not much. What customs decides to take is kind of a random thing.

It’s mostly just bad luck. Even small packages can get snagged just as easily as big ones.

And skipping the full packaging doesn’t necessarily guarantee it’ll sail through safely. At the end of the day, all you can really do is cross your fingers and hope for the best.

 

3. What if my package gets seized? Will the seller replace it?

The standard policy is that if your order gets seized in China, the seller will replace it for free. However, if it’s seized in your destination country, the seller typically isn’t responsible.

The seizure policy can vary from seller to seller. So ask about their specific policy before making a payment.

Some sellers might replace seized packages with no extra charge, some might reship if you pay half of the original total, and others might offer seizure insurance for an extra fee.

Be aware of what to expect in case this happens to you, so you’re not caught off guard by the outcome.

 


High-quality designer replica handbags can seriously up your fashion game you just gotta make sure you’re doing it the right way.

Once you’re comfortable with the level of purchase you’re making, go ahead!

It’s all a learning curve, and the more you actually go through the process, the more comfortable you’ll be.

I hope all this info helps you land the best duplicate luxury bags out there. And don’t forget to come back and share the gems you find!

 

 

6,315 Comments

  1. Andie
    October 17, 2023 / 9:13 am

    Anyone buy white bags recently? I’m having trouble finding one that is white to match my many white shoes/sneakers. Bags seem to be cream or ivory when they’re advertised as white.

     
    • Nita
      October 17, 2023 / 1:00 pm

      There’s the white Fendi baguette small and med if that’s your jam.

       
      • ANDIE
        October 17, 2023 / 7:29 pm

        Now THAT is a white bag, thank you!

         
  2. Effy
    October 16, 2023 / 10:11 pm

    Random Q anyone heard of Huachab.com? Trying to find a mid tier Chanel Coco in white in a larger size for my sis…

     
  3. Marsali
    October 16, 2023 / 6:34 pm

    Thoughts on the Hermes 24/24 ? I stumbled across one on instagram a few weeks ago and I’m obsessed. I’ve been thinking about getting a mini Kelly but I like this one more, so I’m curious if anyone has one and likes theirs?

     
  4. Alizeh
    October 16, 2023 / 3:05 pm

    never been a valentino fan but the roman rock stud bags are genuinely gorgeous.

     
    • Indi Ayala
      October 16, 2023 / 10:05 pm

      I feel like valentino is definitely having a moment I already have the small loco in white and love it! Also have my eye on the black embellished one stud and the black on black loco in the larger size

       
  5. zx
    October 16, 2023 / 11:17 am

    Looking for little bougie accessories to add to my cart. Things that aren’t calloutable to the average person. Suggestions?

     
  6. Ismay
    October 16, 2023 / 5:44 am

    Has anyone bought from Tonstory recently? I just reached out for a neverfull, and the interaction has been different this time around than before. It makes my rep spidey senses tingle.

     
  7. Kaitlyn
    October 15, 2023 / 11:24 pm

    Has anyone ever come across rep/dupe Patbo clothes?

     
  8. Hadassah
    October 15, 2023 / 5:48 pm

    Do you guys space out orders? I just received two bags, different sellers, this past week. They were shipped around the same time. I have two more bags I’d like to get before going to ban island but I’m wondering if I could wait a month or it doesn’t really matter when it comes to customs.

     
  9. Leela
    October 15, 2023 / 4:10 pm

    Hey all, what’s the normal payment method on AE or DH gate? First time for me on those sites.

     
    • Shannon
      October 15, 2023 / 9:04 pm

      You can pay with a regular credit card, similar to Amazon.

       
  10. Kamryn
    October 15, 2023 / 3:33 pm

    Saw the flamenco in Chocolate this morning and I’m already desperate for a rep! 🤩

     
    • NI87Q
      October 22, 2023 / 4:17 pm

      OMG if you come across a rep let us know!

       
    • GREYE
      November 1, 2023 / 8:08 pm

      I LOVE this color and honestly I am between this and the Vintage Khaki. So gorgeous.

       
  11. Elinor H
    October 15, 2023 / 12:47 pm

    Hi All! Has anyone had luck with finding good Isabel Marant boot reps? In love with the Duerto!

     
    • Hebe
      October 15, 2023 / 5:33 pm

      These are perfectly western chic! I love!! Fingers crossed we both find a rep!!

       
  12. nzug
    October 15, 2023 / 10:28 am

    Does anyone have experience buying chanel coco crush rings from any sellers?

     
    • Eilis
      October 16, 2023 / 12:20 am

      Have you tried jewelryreluxe.com, it was the first site I came up with in my search

       
  13. Berenice
    October 15, 2023 / 7:07 am

    How do I choose a colour for my Goyard Artois! Tossing up between black/tan, blue or green??

     
    • thyjtg
      October 15, 2023 / 4:23 pm

      Green. The blue is good for accessories, but I tired of my blue quickly!

       
    • v
      October 15, 2023 / 10:22 pm

      I love my green Goyard! It brings me so much joy and I’m usually a neutral only girl.

       
    • Ally
      October 16, 2023 / 10:48 am

      I’m having the same dilemma for my boheme i keep hearing people say the green/blue even when theyre very neutral fashion but i just dont know if i can pull it off!

       
  14. iiiooo
    October 14, 2023 / 10:04 pm

    Question for all you experienced rep clothes buyers do seller put their clothes on sale at the end of a season?

     
  15. ccr
    October 14, 2023 / 9:08 pm

    Does anyone know why some mini coco handles have the seam around the flap others don’t?

     
    • Katerina
      October 15, 2023 / 5:25 pm

      Some classic flaps have the edge stitching and some don’t. I wonder if Chanel does that for the coco handle as well?

       
    • cam
      October 16, 2023 / 1:45 pm

      Because they are probably not auth/ or maybe different seasons . Verification is awful.

       
    • Kyoko
      October 16, 2023 / 7:08 pm

      Pre-2021, they didnt have the stitching. The ones with edge stitches are newer models.

       
  16. ala
    October 14, 2023 / 5:22 pm

    I’ve been absolutely obsessed with the dior saddle vintage / double vintage lately. Anyone know which factory / seller can source the vintage model? 😭The auth prices are up to par with the current model and not worth the hefty price tag!!

     
    • Bibi
      October 15, 2023 / 8:01 am

      I had an auth one of these in the late 90’s early 2000s and sold it 😭😭😭😭. Biggest regret! It went out of style and when I saw it come back I was just sick. I loved it- mine was red oblique ❤️😭

       
      • Hortense
        October 15, 2023 / 3:46 pm

        I had a limited edition Speedway and loved that bag.

         
  17. J Prince
    October 14, 2023 / 3:17 pm

    I’m thinking of getting a mid tier birkin 35 to use as a work bag and try it out to see if I really am a ✨ birkin girl ✨. I’m thinking box leather because I want to use and abuse that bitch and I want the world to see IDGAF. While I don’t want it to be blatantly callout-able from 20 feet away, I also don’t care that it’s a dead ringer for an auth. I work in cybersecurity with a bunch of gamers, so no one will be inspecting the bag up close. I’m thinking DD

     
  18. Manning
    October 14, 2023 / 12:48 pm

    Thoughts on the Sangle in navy? I wear mostly neutrals so this could work but I don’t love it…I really wanted the tan which has been discontinued.

     
    • iuygss
      October 15, 2023 / 9:52 am

      Love a navy bag! Such a nice alternative to black. I have the green Sangle and it’s really great. I always get compliments on it.

       
    • Zala
      October 15, 2023 / 2:15 pm

      I have it in navy and love it. Great neutral and alternative to black

       
      • MANNING
        October 15, 2023 / 10:07 pm

        It is a classic color! I’m torn. I found a seller who said the tan I originally wanted is available but I’m a bit skeptical because every other seller is saying it’s no longer available

         
  19. Ondine
    October 13, 2023 / 10:15 pm

    Any Suggestions??? Missing Delivery. I recently was inspired by a post to purchase Hokas from DHGate. Finally got the message they were delivered…..only to find NO DELIVERY.

    Any suggestions to disputing that I received a package? Ive checked my security cameras and I have not received anything. My address was correct as I have received other items. But DHL says only the shipper can dispute…

     
    • Thelma
      October 14, 2023 / 9:01 am

      I’ve had this happen twice they were both suddenly there within 48 hours. I’d suggest reaching out to the seller letting them know it says delivered, but that you’ll wait a day or two for them to show up before opening a dispute.

       
      • ONDINE
        October 14, 2023 / 4:47 pm

        Sadly, it has never shown up. DHGate closed my appeal and I have lost the $$ 🙁

         
        • THELMA
          October 14, 2023 / 9:21 pm

          I am sooooo bummed for you! Ugh!

           
  20. Yareli Mayo
    October 13, 2023 / 9:02 pm

    Anyone have a AE seller they like for Oran sandals? I’ve been resisting them, but I want to try a pair!

     
    • A
      October 13, 2023 / 11:47 pm

      I’d also like to try a Oran style off AE that’s cheap but decent. I’ve seen a few listings but would be great if someone had a good experience with one.

       
    • Ellison
      October 14, 2023 / 10:28 am

      I think it’s best not to. I was in talks in with an AE seller and asked to see actual pics of the Orans. They sent me their album and while the shoes looked like good quality, the price listed was $90. I asked them why it wasn’t $50 like on their AE page and they said the $90 ones were top quality. So if I had purchased them through AE, I’d most definitely be receiving a lower quality pair.

       
    • Helga
      October 14, 2023 / 4:07 pm

      I bought 2 pairs of Orans from DHG and they were both not good.

       

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